it's hard to struggle through something like this in the sight of the world (on the www) (as someone who has worked in the church for 9 years) but it may be the only way to come to great conclusions. i formed this blog as a journal for my thoughts so here they are...raw. please feel free to comment your thoughts on my thoughts and check back to see my response.
i will try to keep these post simple and clear.
this thought process starts off with the question of how much choice do we have in this world with a supreme and personal God?
i am coming to the conclusion that we less choice than i ever thought before. we make choices ever day...some good...some could be better and that makes this process hard. in Romans 3:9-10, the apostle Paul says that no one is righteous, no not one. he also say is Romans 7:18 that "i know that no good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh."
first, you have to define flesh. our flesh is our natural state apart from the work of God's Spirit.
to get to the point, i am coming to the realization that the only choice we have as humans is to resist Christ...the sinful nature...our sinful desires. our natural bent, that no one can argue with (who believes in the Scriptures), that our natural state, from day one, is sinful. we are born to resist God. Therefore, our natural state is the only freedom of choice we can possibly have. The only choice we are capable of making is sin.
John 6:65 says, "no one can come to (Jesus) unless it is granted him by the Father." the choice of us "choosing God" is not our choice to begin with. if we are able to "choose" any good, it's because of God. John also say in chapter 1:13, "to all who did receive Him, who believe in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
conclusion: we have no will to choose God or to choose righteously.
your thoughts???
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7 comments:
So this is one of the most confusing doctrines I think (with the Trinity being the other). I think we still do have the free-will to choose to accept God and we are not predestined before we were created. But, that being said, without God calling us, we would not choose to accept Him. But, He calls all of us, and it is obvious some do not choose to accept Him. This is because we are human and He gave use free will. I think the choice we have makes our faith real.
@ SSU: Mrs. Umpleby...I want to challenge you to put some scripture to your statement. About a year ago I would have agreed with you but then there were some unanswered questions in scripture.
As believers here is what we must remember...we believe in a God that is not confusion. We (as believers as a whole...not me and you specifically) are pragmatic in our faith and we seem to lean on what we are told.
Scripture as a whole paints a beautiful picture (still with some unanswered questions). Each part of Scripture is a puzzle piece and they all HAVE to fit together. Unanswered questions are OK but inconsistencies or contradictions are a problem with our interpretation and principleization...our theology and our doctrine.
We have to wrestle with these issues. SO lets put these pieces together and understand the fulness of God. Let me here some scripture.
jordan you are a little over my head... not so hard to do but I want to understand so I will follow this blog. When I read this and re-read it... The statement "The only choice we are capable of making is sin" both catches my attention and for some reason bothers me and kinda disturbs me. Can you explain more what you mean about this? Arent we capable of making many many other choices that are not sinful regarding how we live and serve?
We grew up in the same church so I get the whole recovering baptist thing. Although I do cherish the way I was raised and am grateful beyond words for having a mother who took me to church I realize several of the things we were taught were indeed not necessarily biblical (as in I can't find them in the bible) I try to realistically think about things and "is this biblically true" or "is this what I was told was the right way in my childhood." There are many many things I have found like this in the past few years that have changed the way I think. It's a learning experience but I still love my baptist roots.
I think its great you are putting your thoughts out there. You are much further advanced than me in the knowledge of scripture obviously, however from this I come away thinking what I truly feel is the reason we are here on earth. That most IMPORTANT choice we ever make is to accept christ and in the end that is all that matters.
@ Marsha: girl, realize that I am still trying to iron out all the details too. I will do my best to share where I am coming from.
A few years ago I got offended at the argument that we do not have the ability to choose Christ. Just as you said wrestling with this is bothersome and disturbing because it challenges your foundation. But I promise you, when you ask yourself the tough questions and put all options on the table and compare them to scripture...it's freeing.
side note: I did this about 6 years ago with mormonism. I was taught they were a cult and so I believed it. I couldn't tell you why. I put everything I "thought" about them behind me and met 6 weeks with two mormon missionaries. The Holy Spirit was amazing in how He "showed" me their differences from a Biblical standpoint. We have to trust the Spirit of God to be vulnerable and be not afraid to wrestle with Him.
the Bible is not something Pastors understand...that's a pre-reformation mindset. Today's Christians find themselves wrestling with many things in life (dating, friends, budgets, work, etc) but our biggest downfall is we don't STUDY the scriptures.
Marsha, let me start by asking you a question I had to define from a Biblical standpoint. From your foundation in Christ...what is our purpose here on earth? What did God create us for?
Let's talk through this.
The statement "The only choice we are capable of making is sin" both catches my attention and for some reason bothers me and kinda disturbs me.
All of this is coming from notes from a class I take called Faith Bible Institute:
All men would reject God's call so God therefore gives sufficient grace to enable all men to freely respond to His Call - Jn 6:44; 12:32 and Titus 2:11
God's perfect foreknowledge of each man's grace enabled, genuine, free will response to God's universal drawing is involved with God's sovereign purpose and choice. God also sovereignly chose the plan and divinely decreed that all of those in Christ would be saved entirely be grace - Rom 8:29-30, Eph 1:4, and 1 Pet 1:2
It is true that no man seeks or would accept God. God therefore sovereignly chose to provide to all men sufficient enabling grace so that all men may freely accept or freely reject God's call to salvation, without any merit on their part - Titus 2:11, Prov 1:24, Mt 23:37, Lk 13:34, Jn 12:32; 5:40
I can look it up more if you would like... I am just coping what I have in my notes at the moment (we studied it last fall - so I have forgotten some of it).
@ SSU: sweet...let me chew on that for a little bit?
I was going to state what I was always "taught" not studied for myself but "taught" was very similar to all the verses quoted by SSU. I do feel we are all given a choice at some point in life to choose god b/c isnt that what the scripure says as in SSU's last comment? Its hard for me to understand though from a human mindset how that is possible though given all the language barriers and the people who live in 3-world countries.
If nothing else this is challenging me to get more into the word. That is good. I never realize how much I rely on others interpretation until now I think.
As far as your question "Marsha, let me start by asking you a question I had to define from a Biblical standpoint. From your foundation in Christ...what is our purpose here on earth? What did God create us for?" I would say in short I think we are placed on earth to serve god and to use the gifts we are given to make the world a better place and to strive to live like jesus did. We are here to witness to others about christ and to be good role christian role models. But most importantly that we accept christ at some point in out lives.
Ask me that again in a few months/years I am going to start reading my bible and maybe the answer will be different then.
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